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Thursday, January 29, 2009

part 4 the finale' end times thoughts

So you don’t believe in pre-trib, what do you think the Bible teaches??
On the same day Noah went into the ark and was saved many perished.
On the same day Lot left Sodom and Gomorrah the fire fell and consumed.
On the same day the church is raptured the judgment of God will fall.
2nd Thes. 1:7,8 This section refers to one day when God’s judgment falls, judgment that means trouble for the unbelievers and relief from trouble for the believers who have persevered.
The church will be in the earth and aware of the signs of His coming.
The SAINTS will KNOW when the time is near. Jesus is NOT coming until we see the Antichrist sitting in the Temple of God (in Jerusalem) claiming to BE God! (1 Th 5:4 KJV) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (read 4:15 - 5:4)
Please note, that Jesus can NOT come at any moment as pre-tribers teach. Paul warned the Thessalonian church, that they will NOT be raptured until these two events take place:
1. Many Christians have fallen away from the faith
2. The man of sin is revealed, sitting in the temple of God, showing himself to be God!
(2 Thes. 2:1-3)
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (rapture), Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

A remnant of unbelievers (I personally believe these are children) survive to parent future nations whom Satan will deceive in the future at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. (Zech. 14:16-19, Rev. 20:6-9)
Zech. 14:12, 16-19
And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. [17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. [18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. [19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This remnant of people who survive the coming of Christ, are the nations over whom the FIRST resurrection saints will reign.
All of the following scholars are in agreement that Rev. 14:14-16 and Matthew 24:31 is the rapture of the church!
Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible 1798-1870
Dr. John Gill's Exposition of the entire Bible 1690-1771
Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Commentary
The People's New Testament (1891) by B. W. Johnson
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible
John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible
Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
If you read Rev. 6:9-11 and 20:4, you will note that these are the saints that were killed during the great tribulation .
What about the doctrine of imminence, the “Jesus could return at any moment” theory?
Daniel prophesied that the anti-Christ would make a covenant with Israel and then break it. Israel did not exist to make a covenant with until 1948, so there is no doctrine of imminence. Prophecy’s must be fulfilled.
God help us can't we see that the whole tenor of the New Testament, the Theme, the major issue is Love, love that is willing for its very life to be 'given up' in order to see others come to know the God who is love, so shouldn't the church be willing, expecting, preparing, to be the same type of suffering servant that the Lord of the church demonstrated by His Life on this earth...A pure, spotless bride. Show me any other thing that will change the current church into a pure spotless bride??? beeeepppp time's up, the only answer is tribulation,
Daniel 11:31 describes the anti-christ desecrating the sanctuary see also matt 24:15 and then comes this verseDaniel 11:32 "By smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action. 11:33 Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many : yet they will fall by sword and by flame , by captivity and by plunder for many days." This is the church alive and well, being a strong witness to the power of God, and yet being willing to "lay down their lives", in the second half of the tribulation... and really seriously, where else would you want the church to be, when the world will be in such a time of upheaval and terror. The church was created to be a witness "for such a time as this", not to be raptured out and placed on the sidelines, leaving the "work" to a bunch of 3 year old believers, who came to the Lord after the rapture.This started out at 14 pages, I have trimmed it as much as I can, sorry for the length, thanks for reading it.
Excellent resource, “Rapture? Sure…but when?” William E. Anderson

Monday, January 26, 2009

part 3 end times thoughts

more from my "too long" but i really couldn't make it any shorter stuff

Old Testament “Rising” The “rising” of the old testament saints happens following a time of great trouble Isaiah 26:16-21
Isa 26:16
O LORD, they sought You in distress; They could only whisper a prayer, Your chastening was upon them. Isa 26:17 As the pregnant woman approaches {the time} to give birth, She writhes {and} cries out in her labor pains, Thus were we before You, O LORD. Isa 26:18 We were pregnant, we writhed {in labor,} We gave birth, as it seems, {only} to wind. We could not accomplish deliverance for the earth, Nor were inhabitants of the world born. Isa 26:19 Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew {is as} the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs {its} course. Isa 26:21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain
Daniel 12:1-3Dan 12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands {guard} over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace {and} everlasting contempt. Dan 12:3 "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1Cr 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 1Cr 15:24 then {comes} the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
So Christ comes back, and all those who are His are raised, and then the end comes.
Revelation 4:1
Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door {standing} open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like {the sound} of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."
This verse doesn’t have anything to do with the rapture. Since when does John, one apostle in a vision represent the entire church? Also in Revelation 4:1 John is beckoned to come up, Jesus does not come down, so the imagery is all wrong. But , some say, since the word “ekklesia” is not seen anymore in Revelation after this that means that the “church” ekklesia, must be gone. But ekklesia is not seen in heaven either after this so the fact that that word is missing doesn’t prove anything. It is also missing from 2nd Timothy, Titus, 2nd Peter, and 1 John and 2 John, and Jude. But the words “saints” “the servants of our God” the redeemed” “ those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” “my people” and , those who “follow the Lamb wherever He goes” are used. All of these terms occur later in Revelation, all of these terms and phrases are words that are applicable to the church.
The “elect”, the “saints” and the “church” are one and the same entity! The word church is defined as the gathering together of the elect which is also defined as the saints! Here ‘elect’ is used regarding the church. Col. 1:2 - 3:12 - 4:15 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
As Paul wrote this letter to the church of Colosse, he called them saints, and the elect of God!
Thayer's Greek Definitions
“elect” G1588 eklektos
1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God
1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ
1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God

Revelation 5:8
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Here the Pre-trib argument is that the 24 elders are representative of the church already in heaven praising God. But they sing a song in the third person speaking of what God has done for “them”
Rev 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood {men} from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Rev 5:10 have made them {to be} a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Not “us” as you would expect if the “church” was singing about the church, but “them” indicating these elders are not the church. Also, since the prayers they are holding are the prayers of the saints, so if they were the church, that would be their own prayers and it wouldn’t be phrased that way.
Revelation 3:10
Rev 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that {hour} which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth
We need to examine “keep you from” and when we do we find that John uses this same language in John 17:15Jhn 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil {one.}” So “keep you from” is not the idea of a physical removal but a “carrying thru”, a deliverance through trouble. And if this takes the church out of the picture, why have another letter addressed to another church that also has overcomers in it?

Sunday, January 25, 2009

end times thoughts part 2

the continuation of my 8 pages

A look at some key verses
1 Thessalonians 4:17
This verse is used by many to prove the rapture of the church before the tribulation and that “proof” hinges on the word translated "meet" in the new testament.That word ‘meet’ occurs only 4 times. (529 is the Strong’s concordance number.)Mat 25:1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps and went forth to meet 529 the bridegroom .Mat 25:6And at midnight there was a cry made , Behold , the bridegroom cometh ; go ye out to meet 529 him .Act 28:15 And the brethren, when they heard about us, came from there as far as the Market of Appius and Three Inns to meet 529 us; and when Paul saw them, he thanked God and took courage.
1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet 529 the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord .In each occurrence it is people coming out from a place; a wedding feast, Rome, the earth, meeting the person and then returning with that person to where they were. So keeping the word "meet" with its true and only meaning all the other times it is usedwe meet Christ in the air and then return to earth to watch him win the battle of Armageddon and start the millennial reign. This would be in keeping with the one and only second coming of Christ. This would mean there is no "secret" "approaching," 1/2 way down, for a rapture, sometime, before the start of the tribulation.
The verses around 1 Thes. 4:17 1Th 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
If Paul had meant this section to teach Pre-trib rapture, why would he have gone on in Chapter 5 to tell the church to be sober and prepare for the day of the Lord, the final day of God’s final judgment. All three things in 1 th 4:16, the shout the voice of the archangel and the trumpet all speak of the end of the tribulation, the shout is a war cry for Jesus to come down and be victorious in Armageddon, the trumpet of God is the final trumpet, Jesus doesn’t come down with any of the other trumpets
1 Corinthians 15:51-55
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1Cr 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Cr 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 1Cr 15:55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
Verse 52 states this event happens at the last trumpet, what does the word “last” mean??
This event is happening at the end of the tribulation. Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken
If it happens sometime before the tribulation ‘death’ is certainly not swallowed up, in fact “death’ still has millions of people to kill at that time.

Monday, January 19, 2009

end times thoughts finally done

I will post this more than 8 pages of thoughts, about 2 pages at a time in the coming days, I worked long and hard on it, because i think it is very important.

Thoughts on the end times
I feel to put down in writing my thoughts on the “end times.” They are my thoughts and though I have striven to present them in a convincing fashion, I acknowledge that there is too much about this subject for anyone to “know it all.” There will be those who, after reading this, will still hold to beliefs that are the opposite of what I present. Though I believe this subject is important it is not by any means a reason to break fellowship. Love and the Unity of the Body of Christ leave no room for making this a bigger issue than it is. That being said, I submit this ‘paper’ and pray that it “gets us thinking.”
I lead off with this section from John 17, because a lot depends on our use of, and understanding of, words. When Jesus prays in verse 15 that God would keep his disciples (both the ones there and those that would read these words) from the evil one, how was that prayer answered? 11 of the 12 apostles died as martyrs. So the answer to that prayer was not physical protection from an untimely cruel death. The answer to the prayer for them and for us, is that all would “persevere to the end.” How that end occurs is not the point. Being “kept from the evil one” is accomplished when one is faithful to the end.
Jhn 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and {yet} they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, {the name} which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We {are.} Jhn 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. Jhn 17:13 "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. Jhn 17:14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jhn 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil {one.} Jhn 17:16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jhn 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. Jhn 17:18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. Jhn 17:19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. Jhn 17:20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; Jhn 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, {are} in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Jhn 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil {one.} The pre-trib rapture position maintains that it is Jesus’ will, to take ‘the church’ out of the world, but this verse states just the opposite. But some would say the position of the pre-trib rapture isn’t to take us out of the world, but out of the “wrath of God.” This is referencing 1 Thes. 5:9, but in the context the “wrath” is being contrasted with the Salvation that Jesus paid for, so the wrath that is being spoken of in this verse is eternal separation from God, as contrasted with eternal salvation.
Rev 12:11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.”This verse emphasizes the principle, that God chooses to have a faithful witness to His love thru-out the tribulation time. They are counted as overcoming Satan, who remain steadfast to the end. Satan’s ‘victory’ over their ‘earthly life’, just like his victory over the life of the ‘Lamb’ on the cross, is in REALITY a irreversible, complete defeat.
Suffering in this life is connected over and over with glory in the next. Far from being a sign that God doesn’t care for you, it is actually a sign that He trusts you with a ‘great mystery.’ He trusts that you will echo Job and say the amazing, Satan-defeating words, Job 13:15 "Though He slay me, I will hope in Him. Nevertheless I will argue my ways before Him.” I left the second half of that verse in there because the truth is when everything we see is contradicting what we thought we knew about Gods’ love it is natural for us to want to argue ‘before Him.’
Luk 24:25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Luk 24:26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" Luk 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. (This is from a commentary on verse 26.)
26. Ought not Christ--"the Christ," "the Messiah." to suffer . . . and enter--that is, through the gate of suffering (and suffering "these things," or such a death) to enter into His glory. "Ye believe in the glory; but these very sufferings are the predicted gate of entrance into it."
I close this ‘prelude’ with another section of scripture that emphasizes that disciples of Jesus Christ are not taught to expect ‘safety’ for their physical body, but they are taught to expect that their eternal soul will be preserved as they ‘endure to the end.’
Mat 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. Mat 10:23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish {going through} the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Mat 10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. Mat 10:25 "It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more {will they malign} the members of his household! Mat 10:26 "Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. Mat 10:27 "What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear {whispered} in {your} ear, proclaim upon the housetops. Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mat 10:29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And {yet} not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. Mat 10:30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Mat 10:31 "So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. Mat 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

The best illustration I can give to explain my passion for the proper understanding of the end times is this: A church that believes the pre-trib rapture will be like actors who are training to play the role of a soldier in a movie. They know no one is going to get hurt and the war isn't real. Now compared to them how do you think a real Navy Seal, or Marine, or Green Beret, trains. No comparison. The church who expects to walk thru the horrific challenges of a world where all believer's in God are hounded, persecuted, or killed, will be “training” in a much more sober-minded manner. They will not be “shaken” when persecution and trials come on an unprecedented scale. Isaiah 50:10 Who is among you that fears the LORD, That obeys the voice of His servant, That walks in darkness and has no light? Let him trust in the name of the LORD and rely on his God. People get ready!!

Saturday, January 17, 2009


with much gratitude to the grace courses at

the blood of the Lamb applied to the outside of the door = fading glory
communion - taking the blood of Jesus - internally, so that His Life
can flow thru us from the inside to the outside = ever increasing glory

commandments written on stone = fading glory
by faith, the life of Jesus, in me, written on my heart = ever increasing glory

Hearing a good sermon and being convicted and deciding that i will try, try,
try, to do better, pray more, read more, etc. = fading glory
Hearing a good sermon and knowing that i am weak and crying out for
the Life of Jesus to be more and more manifested thru me, putting off
the old man, and allowing the Life of Jesus to flow thru me = ever increasing glory

I need His moment by moment life flowing thru me, NOTHING else will do.

Friday, January 16, 2009

grace to be replaced

two further thoughts on grace and faith

when in a difficult situation that I cannot handle, the Lord
prompted me to be "replaced" , so in my mind and heart
I chose to "leave" the situation and put Jesus there in my
place..... aaaahhhhh much better

also, being a guy, I feel like I have to fix things, so when things
are not "picture perfect" in the family, I begin going over ways
that I will have to change, or things that I will have to do to make
it "all better" and I am done with that also
now I am seeking to enter the rest of God, seeking to have Him
take over my burdens, so when things are "out of whack" i
push myself away from the "fix-it" bench and call on Jesus
to come and make a way where there is no way
.... aaahhhh much better

Saturday, January 3, 2009

grace for grace

the fact that the grace is there to live in humility and moment-by-moment
dependence on the Life of Christ in you, seems to me to be the ONLY
fact right now, so help us God, to truly Live by faith and to lay down the
awful burden and yoke of trying to live the life by striving and not by
faith and grace